Reds sign Cordero

[Larry]

Does it matter if you have a good closer if you don't have the lead at the end of the game.

Seriously though I think it's a good signing.

[V3r1f13d]

4 Yr for 46 Million.

What a stupid signing. Not because of the joke above (even though it was funny). It's as if none of these teams have farming systems, or they believe they are on the verge of a WS Championship but are only missing one piece.

This is like adding a golden bathroom with Italian marble, to a trailer home.

Just makes no sense to me.

[CuseFan10]

Originally Posted by V3r1f13d

4 Yr for 46 Million.

Just makes no sense to me.

Awful signing IMO, too. With a team that is that limited in their payroll, you can't spend 15% of your annual budget (or whatever it works out to) on a freakin closer. Simply ridiculous. They are paying Ken Griffey Jr and Francsico Cordero like $25-30 million a year of a $70 million payroll.

Asinine.

Quote I saw: "That the Reds spent this much on a guy who only figures to throw 70 innings per year shows precisely why they're going nowhere fast. Cordero is a fine pitcher, but he blew one more save than David Weathers did last season."

Spot on. It's like a never ending free-fall into obscurity for this once proud franchise. Eric Milton anyone??

[CuseFan10]

Originally Posted by FlyersFan

And with probably the best hitting lineup in the NL, they are a favorite to win the Central at this point.

Did Dookie GM invade your body Homer Flyers? Best hitting line-up in the NL? In what world? Plus, in that park all their stats are inflated. Favorite to win the Central? Be serious. They are favored to edge out the Pirates for last place in the Central.... maybe.

I needed a good laugh, thanks

LOOKED FURTHER INTO IT FLYERS:
IF they start this line-up (which I think Dusty Baker will, assuming a RHP is on the bump), then they have not one guy that will hit .300 and maybe only two or three who are good bets to hit over .280.

C- ROSS - Hit .203 last year and has never hit over .255 in a season where he played 50 games
1B- HATTEBERG - Dusty LOVES playing vets over kids and Hatteberg is a role player, albeit a pretty good one. He's not a starting 1B though. Votto the stud should start but Dusty is Dusty.
2B- PHILLIPS - Emerging, or emerged, star.
SS- GONZALEZ - Fluke offensive year, studly defensive beast. In 10 years, he's hit over .270 only twice. He's an awful offensive player. Always has been.
3B- ENCARNACION - Jury is still out. 16 HR's in 502 at bats and plays in that park??
OF- DUNN - Stifler's favorite player. The guy will never get you a hit in a big spot. Yea, he'll hit 40+ HR's every year, but he's never hit .270 in his life.
OF- HAMILTON - Another fluke. Hopper is a nice little utility guy I like, but neither of these guys are big time offensive players.
OF- GRIFFEY - Hard to say anything bad about him, but he's is in his 19th season, always hurt, and slowing down.

That numbers inflated team is the best offense in the National League? Don't think so.

[CuseFan10]

Reds in the NL were:

9th in AVG
7th in RUNS
9th in HITS
8th in OBP
8th in SB's
3rd in HR's
5th in SLG

So essentially all the can do is hit HR's and that's really because of their home ballpark.

[Larry]

So what your saying cuse is that the reds are

[V3r1f13d]

Originally Posted by FlyersFan

then i guess you don't follow the REDS very much

Dumping 11 million on a single player per year, especailly on someone who only pitches in the 9th (given there Reds are up by 3 or less) is a key acquisition. You are saying that this was the player you were missing and is going to help you get into the post season. I don't think Cordero will do this. He had a great year last year, doesn't mean he will do it next year. The year before he only had half the saves. In his 8 year career he has had one year in the 30s and 2 in the 40's, which is good, without a doubt. 11 Million a year good? Not in my opinion. In his last year with the Reds he will be 37!!! I seriously doubt the guy will last more than a 2 years before you stick him in as a reliever.

Congrats...I'm glad you're happy. I know you're a Reds fan, and I would like to see them do well. Teams are built, 11 million dollar signings for a freakin closer for a team that was barely in contention is ridiculuos.

The Devil Rays have a good line up and some decent starters, but a closer wouldnt do anything for them. The rest of the division wouldn't even care.

You know who this would make sense to? The Padres. THAT makes sense. That's a legitimate acquisistion and they are now a force to be reckoned with and it would shake up the NL West.

[CuseFan10]

Originally Posted by FlyersFan

On a side note cuse, you are completely incapable of debating something without being a complete jackass about it. You do it day after day after day.

Ha, pot meet kettle - you're black.

Why was I a jackass? Cause I said a franchise that hasn't won over 80 games this century won't be good again next year, and provided stats that I felt support my argument?

I made one smart ass comment in those posts ("In what world?"), and I don't really think that's even so much a wise crack as it is the truth. The Reds offense was mediocre all but 1 category last year and you are pinning your hopes on guys like Jeff Keppinger, Alex Gonzalez, David Ross, and Norris Hopper (who I like, for the record)? How do I know Josh Hamilton was a fluke? I don't. Just a gut feeling. How do I know those guys will not hit .280? Because they never have and are veterans. How do I know Dusty will play Hatteberg over Votto (against RHP), again I don't, but from things I've read and thinking about how he treats rookies in the past - it's not unreasonable to think that. As for Bruce, he looks like a hell of a ball player, but he is also 20 years old and was in Single A to start last year so I doubt he'll be the starting CF next season in Cincy over Hamilton.

It would be great to see the Reds prominent again since they are such a storied franchise, I just think spending $11.5 million per year on a closer is not the way to spend when you have a limited payroll. I also obviously think your "best offense in the NL" quote was crazy but maybe you are crazy like a fox.

Who knows?

[CuseFan10]

And for the record, I do agree the division is bad, but the Cubs are still pretty damn good and will be prohibitive faves, plus one would figure the Brewers will continue to be good and probably even better this season than last, especially if they can straighten out Chris Capuano. I'm leery of the Mets bringing in Estrada (if they don't just non-tender him) because he seems to get a lot of the blame for the pitching problems in Milwaukee and everywhere he has been.

Also, I don't know why you get fired up when you "know" my personality and how I make certain points. I like to mix and match facts with sarcasm/wise ass. It's nothing personal (especially towards you).

[FlyersFan]

Originally Posted by V3r1f13d

Dumping 11 million on a single player per year, especailly on someone who only pitches in the 9th (given there Reds are up by 3 or less) is a key acquisition. You are saying that this was the player you were missing and is going to help you get into the post season. I don't think Cordero will do this. He had a great year last year, doesn't mean he will do it next year. The year before he only had half the saves. In his 8 year career he has had one year in the 30s and 2 in the 40's, which is good, without a doubt. 11 Million a year good? Not in my opinion. In his last year with the Reds he will be 37!!! I seriously doubt the guy will last more than a 2 years before you stick him in as a reliever.

Congrats...I'm glad you're happy. I know you're a Reds fan, and I would like to see them do well. Teams are built, 11 million dollar signings for a freakin closer for a team that was barely in contention is ridiculuos.

The Devil Rays have a good line up and some decent starters, but a closer wouldnt do anything for them. The rest of the division wouldn't even care.

You know who this would make sense to? The Padres. THAT makes sense. That's a legitimate acquisistion and they are now a force to be reckoned with and it would shake up the NL West.

hey, im not saying the guy is the answer. all i can tell you is that i got so freeeeking sick and tired of sitting at my desk last year finishing up work and listening to the reds take a 6-4 lead to the 7th inning and then end up losing 14-6. honest to god it happened on about a daily basis. i don't think tossing 11M at a guy is the best thing in the world, and in all honesty, i dont like long term contracts. if i had it my way, every guy would get about a 2 year deal. how many times do you sit there and say "i can't wait until xxxxx gets off our payroll".

but you guys are missing one key point here that nobody seems to understand. Weathers is a good pitcher and he pitches better in a set up role. REDS have a guy named Burton who was flat out awesome over the last 2+ months. If Cordero pitches solid for the reds in the 9th, they are a legitimate team!!!........once again, they lost probably 1/2 their games in the 7th inning and beyond. So to compare them to the D-rays is kind of rediculous. The REDS also play in a terrible division that is anyone's for the taking. They are solid defensively already. All my point was before Cusefan mocked it to death was that the REDS are "A" contender in the central if Cordero pitches well because the bullpen was their HUGE weakness last year. And being able to bump Weathers to the set up role and Burton to the 7th inning gives them a very good 7th/8th/9th inning deal.

[yomonte]

[V3r1f13d]

OK, points well taken, and I guess we agree on some parts.

Im just saying, and its not like you dont know, but it is going to take A LOT more than Cordero to earn a WS ring. A step in the right direction? Sure, might as well give it a shot.

Oakland should of gotten him and dumped Street. San Diego should have gotten him and dumped Hoff. If I wasnt such a dedicated Angels fan I would say put K Rod in over Shields, but our payroll is high enough. He could have been such an asset to so many teams, and his talent (not trying to be rude) is somewhat going to waste. But hey, I put futures on Cincy every year I hope Im wrong.

Is it April yet?

[FlyersFan]

Originally Posted by V3r1f13d

Im just saying, and its not like you dont know, but it is going to take A LOT more than Cordero to earn a WS ring.

Is it April yet?

yes i agree with you about that. The one thing i will tell you is that the Reds really aren't as far away as people think. They had problems hitting with RISP last year, they had the worst bullpen in baseball (or close) and they need 1 more starter. I don't know what you do about the RISP part. Not sure if that was a fluke or a trend. We'll find out this year i guess. You really can't judge the Reds success last year in terms of W/L because they couldn't hold a lead at all. It was a joke, and even the broadcasters would laugh about it (not in a funny way) when the reds got to the 7th with a lead. If Burton pitches well, along with Weathers and Cordero, then it's a very different picture. Im not kidding, they lost probably 35 games when leading after 7 or so. take 1/2 of those away with a decent pen and they are 84-78 instead of 72-90. It was so bad they were pitching Harang and Arroyo 120-130 pitches and into the 10th inning in games that were close because they knew they were dead if they pulled them. Arroyo threw 133 pitches in one game and that wrecked him for about a month. They have a ton of good young talent and who knows how that is going to pan out. Hamilton- jury is still out, Jay Bruce is rated the top outfielder in the minor leagues in MLB period, Votta looked good last year, then if Keppinger hits the way he did and you add in Phillips, Dunn etc...that is a pretty good hitting team.

I don't know. I am actually excited for the first time in a long time for REDS baseball with this move because as a fan who follows them probably closer than anyone except Horfin and Redssfan on this site, i can tell you they lost a million games due to that ****ty pen. And now on paper they have a very very solid 7th/8th/9th inning lineup. Then if Bray is healthy this year, he is very serviceable. I actually thought they might promote Burton to the closer, but i guess they are content and he is setting up. And there are some good young guys and we'll see what the lizard can do with guys like Bruce, Votto and some of the young pitchers like Homer Baily. They still need another arm but who doesn't i guess.

[CuseFan10]

I know I mocked your "contender" point, and I still totally disagree and don't think they can even be .5000, nevermind a contender - but I do think many of your points are legit. The biggest problem I think is that who is to say that all 3 of Burton, Weather, and Cordero pitch well? Relievers are night and day from season to season except the elite guys. Understandably, that is the plan - lock up the lats two innings with proven vets and hope the kid can do the job in the 7th to shorten the game. Have to wait and see on it now.

I also think you touched on what I was smart(allecky) mocking about the Reds offense. They simply aren't good situational/contact hitters. I won't say I know, cause I don't, but I'd be willing to bet that they are again near the bottom of the league in hitting with RISP. I haven't gone back and looked at numbers, but my guess is that with guy like Dunn, Griffey, Ross, Gonzo, and Encarnacion trying to hit HR's every time they step up to the plate, that the situational hitting will contiue to lag.

But that's just me. I think a lot of their offensive success depends on Votto. He looks like the real deal .310, 25 Hhr, 100 rbi, 40 doubles type hitter. Plug him in the 3 hole after Phillips with Griffey and Dunn behind him and move Encarnacion down to elongate the line-up. They also need a lead-off hitter and they have a very weak 7/8/9/1 with Gonzalez/Keppinger, Ross, the pitcher, the back up to Hopper/Hamilton. I don't know much about Bruce but I assume he isn't a lead off hitter either?

[FlyersFan]

Originally Posted by CuseFan10

I know I mocked your "contender" point, and I still totally disagree and don't think they can even be .5000, nevermind a contender - ?

Cuse- first of all, they were 2 games over .500 from July 1st on last year and that was with a bad bullpen, so i don't understand the notion they can't finish above .500, especially if cordero pitches well. And i never said that everyone would pitch well, i said IF they pitched well. I guess i don't understand not seeing a team that blew about 30 games after the 7th inning getting good relief help and being better, and contending in a bad division. As i said, if that bullpen last year was even average, they would have been over .500 last year, and that is a fact.

I'm done on this point. Im excited to see what happens with this team in 2008. At least they are making some sort of effort to get better and spending some money, which is more than they have in the past.