Johan Santana

[CuseFan10]

I'm surprised we have no discussion about him yet? What do you guys think? Seems to me it's a 5 horse race with one fave, one pretender and 3 wild cards in the Twins quest to get a stud pitcher and 6-8 year center fielder:

THE FAVE
New York Benjamins (I Mean Yankees). Clearly, if and when they put Phillip Hughes in the deal they are the favorite. The package seems to be Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Austin Jackson/Jose Tabata, and probably one lesser prospect we don't know about. The Twins need to get a stud pitcher back, which makes Hughes the key to basically everything.

THE PRETENDER
Boston Red Sox. There's no way on Earth they are trading Ellsbury when they don't necessarily "need" Santana. One, Beckett would be pissed that Santana will make double his salary and, two, they have a ton of pitching on the way led by Buchholz, Lester, and Masterson, amongst others. If the Twins settle for Lester, Crisp and two prospects and don't get either Buchholz or Ellsbury, than that new GM should be immediately fired. Theo Epstein isn't seriously considering moving Ellsbury or Buchholz, so all they are doing is trying to drive up the Yankees price tag.

THE WILD CARDS
Las Angeles Dodgers. They have a TON of young talent and could include Matt Kemp and Chad Billingsley if they got crazy. They also have one of the most coveted players in all the minors in Clayton Kershaw, plus guys like Andy LaRoche and Andre Either. IMO, if they want Santana bad enough, he's theirs. Doesn't seem like they want to pay the price though.

Las Angeles Angels of Anaheim, Orange County, California. They don't have the CF'er, but they have a plethora of young studs on the way led by Howie Kendrick, Brandon Wood, and Nick Adenhart. Not to mention Ervin Santana, Joe Saunders, Jeff Mathis, etc etc etc... They seem more focused on getting Miguel Cabrera because they have 6- starting pitchers already, and covet another big bat but the Marlins seem to be seriously pissing them off lately so maybe they turn to Johan and steal him away???

Seattle Mariners. Adam Jones is the best CF prospect in the world right now (with Ellsbury) so the Mariners have a great foundation to start talks. They also have flame thrower Brendan Morrow and could include Yuniesky Betancourt or one of their many sure handed infield prospects to plug the Twins shortstop hole. Add in one more high level prospect and could Johan could find himself in even more obscurity than he already is???

Phew...

[NittanyLions94]

Originally Posted by CuseFan10

THE PRETENDER
Boston Red Sox. There's no way on Earth they are trading Ellsbury when they don't necessarily "need" Santana. One, Beckett would be pissed that Santana will make double his salary and, two, they have a ton of pitching on the way led by Buchholz, Lester, and Masterson, amongst others. If the Twins settle for Lester, Crisp and two prospects and don't get either Buchholz or Ellsbury, than that new GM should be immediately fired. Theo Epstein isn't seriously considering moving Ellsbury or Buchholz, so all they are doing is trying to drive up the Yankees price tag.

IMO the biggest upgrade Boston could do is start having one of their best pitchers throw more than ~70 innings per year in Pappelbon. People get too caught up in "saves" and the word "closer." Honestly, how hard is it for an average pitcher to go out and get 3 outs with a 2 or 3 run lead? If you are an above average starter, like Pappelbon is, he will obviously flourish throwing the ball as hard as he can for 1 inning every couple days. John Smoltz is the prime example in that case, he was a superb starter and went to the closer role and just dominated. It's the reason that you send the guys that can't cut it as a starter to the pen, it's just flat out easier. The Red Sox are really screwing the pooch by putting this kid in a lesser role. In reality, your best reliever should throw the toughest of the last 3 innings, not be relegated to the 9th just because it's cool to get saves now.

I have no idea where that rant came from, but I think the Yanks part with Joba or Phil Hughes along with Melky and get Johan and quickly lock him up for 5 more years.

[CuseFan10]

Ha - Yea that was weird and unprovoked, haha... Papelbon can't start. His arm doesn't have it in there anymore. He volunteered to move back to closer in the pre-season, and was a closer in college. I think he's there because of worry of injury and now he's been so good, he ain't going back (especially with Buchholz and Lester ready to go).

[NittanyLions94]

He started in the minors and never missed time due to injury(to my knowledge) all while posting a WHIP at or under 1.00. Not trying him at SP is probably one of the dumber things I've seen an organization do. But, I mean, he's real good at getting out 3 guys in one inning every 2-3 games, so why not let it keep going? ****, if I was Papelbon I'd want to stay in the pen too. If I can make $10MM+ in a few years to pitch ~70 innings per season I wouldn't leave the pen anything but scratching and clawing. But anyway, sorry to derail the thread. Carry on.

And I think the reason for the explosion is stupid, idiotic, moronic(add whatever else) Red Sox fans that I'm subject to. A few told me, "I don't want A-Rod, I want Mike Lowell!" I nearly threw up due to the stupidity. And all the, "Papelbon is a closer man, he has the 'right mentality(whatever the **** that buzz term means)' to be a closer."

[CuseFan10]

You didn't derail anything. Yea, he closed at Mississippi State and then they had him starting but he got hurt (still has the injury - shoulder maybe? -, whatever it is I'll have to look up), and they don't think his arm can take the pound of 200 IP's. In spring training he was starting originally this yearn and then they mutually agreed the closer role was best for him and the team. H'es now embraced the role, and is not going anywhere obviously.

Found it: "Jonathan Papelbon will resume his role as Boston's closer, the Red Sox confirmed after Thursday's game.
Papelbon went to management and requested the move. "I hadn’t been sleeping well all spring because I had this feeling that I wanted to close," he said. "In my heart, I had feelings for being a closer." Papelbon was willing to do what was best for the team, but perhaps the Red Sox are better off with him in the role in which he's most confident, even if it means he's could throw 30-40 percent as many innings as he would have as a starter. "This is something I want to do for the rest of my career," Papelbon said. "Hopefully, what (Mariano) Rivera did for the Yankees, I can do for the Red Sox." "

Also the shoulder injury from two years ago: "According to Peter Gammons, Jonathan Papelbon recently had another MRI on the shoulder he injured in September and again the results showed no problems."

Basically, I think they both got what they wanted. Keep him healthy, limit his work, let him become a possible all-time great closer in time if health allows it.

[FlyersFan]

I personally didn't understand locking up an aging Hunter whose skills are diminishing each year to a long term deal. I guess that is an indictment on how bad the GMatthews signing is. I don't think the Angels need an arm and they sure aren't going to give up any bats to get one. They need hitting. Lackey and Escobar are a great 1/2 punch then you have a very decent weaver along with Garland now (who i think sucks but i guess i am in the minority) and then some youngsters. They need some pop in that lineup and i am not sold on Hunter....but if someone can convince me otherwise then OK i guess. I just don't think they are going to toss around that kind of money for him. They lost in the playoffs because they couldn't score any runs.......adding another guy who pitches 9 scoreless innings isn't going to win a 0-0 game....just make them lose 1-0 in extras at some point in the playoffs...lol

[CuseFan10]

FF- I agree the Angels don't need pitching, but if they have the where-with-all, and they do, to get the best pitcher in baseball, you have to consider it, no? If you had to give up Brandon Wood (who could possibly be the most overhyped prospect in the last 10 years), Nick Adenhart, and maybe Weaver to get Santana, you wouldn't do that? Your point is well taken about losing in the playoffs for lack of hitting, but it's easy to go get a hitter, it's not easy to get a pitcher in this day and age.

I'm not saying I even think the Angels are going to be major players, I just meant they certainly have the pieces to go get Johan if they get fed up with Beinfest and the Marlins. I fully expect Cabrera to be an Angel though in time.

As for Matthews Jr, I have no way of knowing this, but I think Arte Moreno despises him. He is embarrassed he has a known cheater on his team, and worse, he got duped into giving him what is one of the most ridiculous contracts in baseball history. Moreno seems to be one of the few owners who take the steroid issue seriously and having Matthews Jr there really seems to irk him.

[CuseFan10]

Looks the the Twins are really turning the screws on Cashman and Hank Steinbrenner, which is great. They have Hughes and Melky in their pocket and now are going after Ian Kennedy as the third guy. Hopefully the can get it done. I hope hey get a fourth prospect on top of it too.

Baseball, specifically the Yankees, are a joke (I haven't looked these up so please correct me if I mis-speak). On the 2008 Yankees we are probably going to have:

The highest paid closer OF ALL TIME (Rivera - $15 million)
The highest paid starting pitcher OF ALL TIME (Santana - who knows million, let's guestimate $22 million)
The highest paid catcher OF ALL TIME (Posada - $13.1 million)
The highest paid first baseman OF ALL TIME (Giambi - $21 million)
The paid shortstop OF ALL TIME (Jeter - $20 million)
The highest paid player and third baseman OF ALL TIME (Rodriguez - $25 million+)

And in 2-3 years, Cano might be the highest paid 2B OF ALL TIME too if he beats out Utley's contract.

Then, they will have an outfield and DH combo (once they sign Aaron Rowand for center field) that with make in excess of $55 million per year with Abreu at $16 million, Damon and Matsui at $13 million and Rowand at $13 million+ (if he gets his contract done before the steroid report comes out, cause look at that dude's shoulders and try to tell me he ain't on something, ha).

Granted, Santana won't make that money until 2009 most likely, but this is really a joke if you ask me.

[FlyersFan]

cuse- i think long term contracts in sports are the dumbest thing i can think of. But if you don't give one someone else will. That's why when you said the REDS signing was dumb, you don't have any choice. Unfortunately someone else will always do it. That GMatthews contract was just absurd. I thought so at the time, as well. I mean how many more examples of a guy coming off a career year and having done nothing else much and getting a huge long term deal do we have to see?? That is why i don't like the Hunter deal. I think 1 year deals with a provision for an option year are the best way to go, especially with relief pitchers. Think if the Doyers had given Gagne a 4 year deal after his huge season....they would have basically ended up paying him to do nothing for 2 1/2 years of that contract. BUT that is the current landscape as assinine as it is.

The Angels have a lot of young talent, i agree. I persoanally don't see them moving Weaver. The 2 guys they would like to move are Saunders or the other guy that can't pitch on the road. They have a lot of guys like Kotchmann, Kendrick, McPherson (who is supposedly better after FINALLY getting the right surgery), Aybar, Wood etc...who keep coming up in trade discussions. Vlad had like 6 HR's after the all star game and 5 of them were in like 2 games....lol....and Anderson can never stay healthy, so they have some holes in their lineup offensively. After already having dumped all that money on Hunter, i don't think they have enough to make 3 big deals this season in the 20M range, and they are still after a bat. So given the choice of signing another bat or an arm with a 2nd big deal...no doubt they sign a bat unless they are dumb.

The other guy who is going to be in the same boat as Santana is Peavy. He is in the last year of his deal and he is going to command big money. Padres have never been ones to reach into the bag and come up with a big deal. If they don't think they can resign him, i wouldn't be shocked to see him dealt at the trade deadline if the Padres aren't in it (and they have a terrible lineup, IMO). So that may be an interesting one to keep an eye on.

[CuseFan10]

FF - I personally think Cabrera winds up and Angel. Obviously the Angels would like move Saunders and Ervin Santana, but those guys are far less appealing than Weaver. How could anyone trade for Ervin Santana considering what his record is outside of Edison Field (is it still called that, who knows?).

Anyway, my guess is they get one of Howie Kendrick or Nick Adenhart and then some complimentary pieces like Saunders and Mathis. If I had to guess, the trade ends up being Miguel Cabrera and some guy we've never heard of for Howie Kendrick, Jeff Mathis, Reggie Willits and one of Joe Saunders or Ervin Santana (whoever the Angels like least). If they include Adenhart then I'd guess it's Adenhart, Mathis, and Willits since Adenhart and Wood are their prize possessions...

If I'm the Angels I'd do either one or any combo that's near the same.

[FlyersFan]

Originally Posted by CuseFan10

FF - I personally think Cabrera winds up and Angel. Obviously the Angels would like move Saunders and Ervin Santana, but those guys are far less appealing than Weaver. How could anyone trade for Ervin Santana considering what his record is outside of Edison Field (is it still called that, who knows?).

Anyway, my guess is they get one of Howie Kendrick or Nick Adenhart and then some complimentary pieces like Saunders and Mathis. If I had to guess, the trade ends up being Miguel Cabrera and some guy we've never heard of for Howie Kendrick, Jeff Mathis, Reggie Willits and one of Joe Saunders or Ervin Santana (whoever the Angels like least). If they include Adenhart then I'd guess it's Adenhart, Mathis, and Willits since Adenhart and Wood are their prize possessions...

If I'm the Angels I'd do either one or any combo that's near the same.

From what i hear they didn't have much confidence in getting Cabrera which is why they pulled the trigger on Hunter....they didn't want to leave the free agency period empty handed. They got rid of a gold glove SS who hit very well last year and i don't think Hunter is that much of an upgrade in the lineup over Cabrera where you can say they are significantly better offensively than they were, so they had better sign Cabrera or somebody. Angels have a wealth of talent in the minor leagues and they are almost the anti-yankees....they won't trade any of it. Which was more Stoneman's philosophy i think, and he is now gone so we shall see.


Back to this topic, i almost feel the Yankees feel they HAVE to get Santana and probably will. But what a joke they are anyway.

[CuseFan10]

Originally Posted by FlyersFan

Back to this topic, i almost feel the Yankees feel they HAVE to get Santana and probably will. But what a joke they are anyway.

On the Yankees, could Hank Steinbrenner shut his damn mouth for one day please? I really hope the Twins file tampering charges against the Yankees for Steinbrenner CONTINUOUSLY talking about a player that is not New York Yankee property. Make them spend more money. John Heyman was just on Mike and the Mad Dog and echoed Steve Phillips sentiments about the Twins not really wanting Melky Cabrera cause they view him as a 4th outfielder. I still think Santana unfortunately wins up in pinstripes.

Found this ($200 million and they still don't have Johan or a CF'er yet if and when Melky goes): Agent Randy Hendricks confirmed that Andy Pettitte would take a one-year, $16 million contract to remain with the Yankees. There will be no option attached to the deal this time. Once the deals for Pettitte, Alex Rodriguez, Mariano Rivera and Jose Molina are official, the Yankees will already be committed to a $200 million payroll, and that's without having added Johan Santana or improving the bullpen.

FF- As for the Angels, Heyman said teh Marlins are such *******s that no one is even going to bother offering them anything for Cabrera since they reportedly turned down a Howie Kendrick, Jeff Mathis, and Nick Adenart offer by asking Ervin Santana to be included too. He said teams can't even match those 3 guys and look at the Marlins like they are greedy and crazy. He thought eventually it would come full circle and that would be the deal (3 for 1).

[JohnnyMapleLeaf]

Santana for Lester & Ellsbury looks to be close I'm reading?

That would be one sick rotation in Beantown.

AND...Imagine the Yankees having to go into Boston to face Beckett/Santana/Dice-K, then flying to Toronto to face Halladay/Burnett/Linecum. (assuming those two trades get done).

Al East is nuts....GL next year, Tampa! lol