would you?

[chris]

Full Tilt Poker Game #5169982615: $10 + $1 Knockout (39186975), Table 16 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 9:35:10 ET - 2008/02/08
Seat 1: wichita cj (31,473)
Seat 2: gimmethatstack (22,500)
Seat 3: dlanger610 (5,722)
Seat 4: LucaToni2007 (29,910)
Seat 5: mbrand (7,610)
Seat 6: ishotyaa77 (8,251), is sitting out
Seat 7: freddya66 (29,200)
Seat 8: DreadedSkip (13,915)
Seat 9: murp1956 (28,305)
wichita cj antes 50
gimmethatstack antes 50
dlanger610 antes 50
LucaToni2007 antes 50
mbrand antes 50
ishotyaa77 antes 50
freddya66 antes 50
DreadedSkip antes 50
murp1956 antes 50
gimmethatstack posts the small blind of 250
dlanger610 posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wichita cj [3c 3d]
LucaToni2007 folds
mbrand folds
ishotyaa77 folds
freddya66 folds
DreadedSkip folds
murp1956 calls 500
wichita cj calls 500
gimmethatstack folds
dlanger610 raises to 5,672, and is all in
murp1956 folds
wichita cj calls 5,172
dlanger610 shows [7d 7c]
wichita cj shows [3c 3d]
*** FLOP *** [2c 5s 4d]
*** TURN *** [2c 5s 4d] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [2c 5s 4d Ts] [Js]
dlanger610 shows a pair of Sevens
wichita cj shows a pair of Threes
dlanger610 wins the pot (12,544) with a pair of Sevens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 12,544 | Rake 0
Board: [2c 5s 4d Ts Js]
Seat 1: wichita cj (button) showed [3c 3d] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 2: gimmethatstack (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: dlanger610 (big blind) showed [7d 7c] and won (12,544) with a pair of Sevens
Seat 4: LucaToni2007 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: mbrand folded before the Flop
Seat 6: ishotyaa77 folded before the Flop
Seat 7: freddya66 folded before the Flop
Seat 8: DreadedSkip folded before the Flop
Seat 9: murp1956 folded before the Flop

[CuseFan10]

Tough call, guess it kinda depends on your feel at the table and how you've been running. You know at absolute best case scenario you are in a coin flip. I probably would have put him on a hand like AQ or AJ or something (cause of his chip stack and desperation possibly even worse) so, like I said, at best you're 52% to 48% or thereabouts. Would also depend on how many people were left and the blind structures and whatnot.

[chris]

I have been doing alot of soul searching threw my hand histroys of the past to get some leaks worked out that I know I have. See in Multi tourney's more times than not I have huge stacks early and put myself in spots where I am gambling at best and then when bubble hits i am fighting for my life. I will try to get more detailed with where I was in regards to the tournament. But overall this hand I say its a horrid call. There really isn't much to gain here with this hand pre flop. I mean at best you will see ak-a-10.

[wsox08]

I'm raising or folding this preflop

if you end up raising it preflop then it's an easy call.

[CuseFan10]

Originally Posted by wsox08

I'm raising or folding this preflop

if you end up raising it preflop then it's an easy call.

Ummmm, you're not going to fold a pocket pair with no raises in front of you. And if he raised to 1500 pre-flop, it's still not and a great call if the guy goes all-in for 5,200 over the top (b/c you still know you're either dominated or in an unnecessary race) and you're only getting about 2 to 1 on your money (the 3700 left to call).

And chris, I agree there's absolutely nothing to gain from the call there. I would like to think I'm good enough to fold that hand and realize it's just a coin flip, and that's not something worth risking nearly 1/5th of your chips or so IMHO. I would have called the 500 and hopefully would be disciplined enough to fold it and not ruin a thriving chip stack.

[wsox08]

Originally Posted by CuseFan10

Ummmm, you're not going to fold a pocket pair with no raises in front of you.

And chris, I agree there's absolutely nothing to gain from the call there. I would like to think I'm good enough to fold that hand and realize it's just a coin flip, and that's not something worth risking 1/5th of your chips or so IMHO.

I never said I was folding this here because I would raise.. What I said was, I suggest raising this in this spot or not play it at all. I'm not a huge fan of the limp. That's all I said.

[CuseFan10]

Originally Posted by wsox08

I'm raising or folding this preflop

I understand your play would be to raise and then I guess auto call a better the size of his raise, but your words were "I'm raising or folding this pre-flop".

Haha. Kinda of undeniable. So I was just saying I doubt anyone is folding pockets before when it's their turn and there have been no raises, no biggie.

[Stifler's Mom]

Pocket pairs are always an interesting topic to me.

First of all, this has NOTHING to do with Chris's hand, but rather just my personal opinion on how I like to play pocket pairs, since I saw "I either raise or fold this hand", and immediately thought of alot of the guys I play with who just love hammer the crap out of like pocket 3's or 4's just trying to get rid of everyone, and then sit there like "oh shit" when someone makes the call.

I suppose it's all a personal preference on how you're comfortable playing them, but I would much rather get in with a low pocket pair for as little as possible (preferably only calling the big blind), and look for the trips on the flop, and play the hand from there, depending on stack sizes, table position, what cards actually come out, etc.

Yea, I know the odds aren't great that you'll hit your set (is it like 12%?), and you'll fold away a few of those hands when the flop doesn't cooperate, but you'll get paid off pretty nicely for hitting that set just about every time too (especailly if your opponent hits his K or his A or whatever), since it's normally kinda hard to put someone on pocket 4's or something and just assume they hit a set cause the flop came out with just some random low cards, and IMO that more than makes up for the ones you end up having to fold away.

I hate the idea of getting committed to a pot by throwing a huge raise out there to trying and buy the pot, and then have someone call me or raise over the top, when essentially the best I can really hope for is to be in a coin flip situation and one where i could be completely dominated by just about any other pocket pair before even seeing a flop.

To me, that's just not getting your money in wisely, and you're left sitting there in a position where you almost have to call his raise to see a flop cause you're already committed, even though it's only resulting in getting more of your chips in bad, when you probably don't even have the best hand.

Either that, or you just tossed a big pile of chips away unnecessarily if you fold to his raise, and didn't even get to see a flop he was originally willing to let you see for the price of the big blind.

Maybe I'm a tight player at times, but it annoys me when I give away chips like that. I'd much rather toss away a few small bets and go for the bigger one when the opportunity presents itself.

Not that i automatically would chuck out the low pocket pair every single time either, but generally, yes, i would fold it to any raise of 3x the big blind or more if i don't catch my set.

On the same hand, I also notice alot of people with AA, KK, or even QQ trying to drag the hand on by checking or betting small and inviting others to follow all the way to the river, only to make a big bet at the pot then, and get called or raised, (and beaten) by someone who had garbage to start, but hits a hand along the way....and then cry about getting a bad beat.

I say if you have AA or KK, take it down right off the bat, if you can. Don't invite some guy with 7d-8d or something to keep calling cause your bets are so small, and then sit there and think you got screwed when the guy hits his straight or flush on the river, when you could have pushed that guy off his suited connectors long before he even saw that river card.

Just how I like to play em....

O yea, I saw a guy flop quads a while back and make a huge bet, with no callers. WTF? Way to maximize the potential of your hand, LMFAO

[chris]

Well said stifler. I said it earlier and I will say it again with the stack size that I had and the push the guy made there was really nothing to gain with a call here IMO. Which also makes me think I should of limped here. Im sot sure about you guys but I see alot of well you play it this way or that way but to be honest I play every hand to the situation at the table, I never play the same with any hand. I make my moves with the hands I have based on stack size,where the blinds are,the type of players/table I am dealing with. Once I wake up today I will post a few more hand history's because I feel it really helps seeing others perspective on the situations.

[CuseFan10]

Agree with Stiff too on most everything, and totally disagree with wsox or people who say they auto raise or fold certain hands. You have to play each hand according to the table and the situation, not the cards.

Did that hand kill your tourney chances or did you come back and recover from the 1/5th chip stack hit/loss?

[wsox08]

Originally Posted by CuseFan10

Agree with Stiff too on most everything, and totally disagree with wsox or people who say they auto raise or fold certain hands. You have to play each hand according to the table and the situation, not the cards.

Did that hand kill your tourney chances or did you come back and recover from the 1/5th chip stack hit/loss?

Just what I expected for you.. You love to debate.


OP: if you really want solid opinions then we need your reads on the other players at the table. Do you use PokerTracker?

But I guess I'm just a robot player (hah, you'd know this isn't true if you saw me play), so disregard what I say.

[chris]

I ended up getting like 5th or 6th in this one.

[CuseFan10]

wsox - I didn't mean to offend you (don't think I did since we talk all the time so you know the deal, but sorry if I did). From what you wrote, one would surmise you always raise or fold pre-flop with small pocket pairs. The other three of us seemingly differ on strategy, and that's fine - there's no right or wrong answer here. I wish you all the best in your poker endeavors.