John McCain - The Real Record on Taxes

[Fish2006]

And this for ya, the net effect of either sides tax proposals:

[homedawg]

2008 Presidential Candidates' Tax Plans: Executive Summary

Abstract

Both John McCain and Barack Obama have proposed tax plans that would substantially increase the national debt over the next ten years, according to a newly updated analysis by the non-partisan Tax Policy Center. Compared to current law, TPC estimates the Obama plan would cut taxes by $2.9 trillion from 2009-2018. McCain would reduce taxes by nearly $4.2 trillion. Obama would give larger tax cuts to low- and moderate-income households and pay some of the cost by raising taxes on high-income taxpayers. In contrast, McCain would cut taxes across the board and give the biggest cuts to the highest-income households.

Neither candidates plan would significantly increase economic growth unless offset by spending cuts or tax increases that the campaigns have not specified.

[Larry]

Why is it fair to penalize people who are living the american dream and making money. They should pay the same percentage as everyone else. I don't make anywhere near
250k a year, but I don't think those that do should have their taxes raised.

[homedawg]

Everyone pays the same $ amount for food, goods, and services. Imagine if everyone paid the same $ amount for taxes. That would motivate the bottom feeders.

[homedawg]

The bottom 50% only pay 3% of the taxes! How much lower can that group go?

[Fish2006]

Originally Posted by Larry

Why is it fair to penalize people who are living the american dream and making money. They should pay the same percentage as everyone else. I don't make anywhere near
250k a year, but I don't think those that do should have their taxes raised.

1.) The rich benefit the most from having a stable government.
2.) As homedawgs graph points out, if we went to a flat tax, we would have to double the taxes on the poor and middle class - since the rich already pay so much. Something you probably dont want.
3.) Matter of balance, really. Having a gilded class if super rich with masses that are, relativley, poor, tends to generate social instability. To wit, gated communities and such here. If you want to see where this leads, go to a 3rd world banana republic where it is worse, and see what kind of bubble the rich have to live in.
4.) As much as it pains me to say this, our government needs the money. Our infrastructure sucks, we have to unclog the banking system, and we have the worlds largest military to support. Unless you want middle and lower class taxes doubled or tripled, the rich, who rather than be crushed by higher taxes, will be merely inconvenieced, will have to pay. You could remove every single earmark in the federal budget, but unless you are willing to drop Social Security, Medicare, the Military, or paying interest in the Nat'l Debt, it aint gonna matter.

I used to use school and the DMV as my frame of reference for government and how well it "works". However, it has occured to me that my frame of reference for government for most of my life, at least since 1980, has been of government under Republicans. Maybe government just sucks when Republicans run the damn thing. I mean, I have also dealt with private health insurance companies that are so bad with efficiency that they could get tips on improvement from the local DMV.

With all due respect, I have been thinking about these issues as a "free marketeer" for a long time, walking the walk and talking the talk. And maybe having worked in the free market - including several years for wall street companies - perhaps I am just jaded at it.

Some very suprsing people in my life, including the former Partner from Arthur Andersen I used to work for - have bought on to the whole Obama thing. Hell, we went to Bush rallys in 2000 when we worked together. I guess my point is that there are a lot of former Republicans like me who are just not buying into what we think is the same old BS anymore, seeing how "well" it has worked for the past 8 years especially.

I am not going to change a lot of minds here - I know that. And everyone brings with them their own way they got to how they think, something I respect - even if I dont agree.

My reflex isnt that I want to "punish" or "penalize" the rich. I just see some very challenging problems that, given my experience in the private sector, I am very much doubtful that private companies can answer. And they are expensive. And given a choice between the middle class and poor paying more - as much as fault as they may be - and the rich, my Hobsons choice is the rich.

(note, it means I pay more taxes too... especially if they increase the cap on SS wages. Not just asking "other" people to do it.)

[homedawg]

Originally Posted by Fish2006

2.) As homedawgs graph points out, if we went to a flat tax, we would have to double the taxes on the poor and middle class - since the rich already pay so much. Something you probably dont want.

Raise the minimum wage! The "rich" can afford the increase in wages, which would bring more jobs, more production, opposed to the increase in taxes, which would bring less jobs, less production!

[NittanyLions94]

Originally Posted by homedawg

Everyone pays the same $ amount for food, goods, and services. Imagine if everyone paid the same $ amount for taxes. That would motivate the bottom feeders.

LOL!

[Queen]

Originally Posted by homedawg

Everyone pays the same $ amount for food, goods, and services. Imagine if everyone paid the same $ amount for taxes. That would motivate the bottom feeders.

You say everybody plays the same tax on food, well this afternoon some lady in front of me paid with a food stamp card and she did not pay tax on the food she bought. Well maybe I should say the State did not pay the tax on the food. Go figure. So the bottom feeder get free food with no tax. I wished I knew where she lived at because she had better food in her buggy than me. LOL Then she loaded it all up in a brand new Lincoln. No Im joking but she was driving a newer car than me.

I work everyday and gosh darn hard at what I do to try and pay my bills and all the bills I have for the trucking company. The one thing I have not been able to figure out is how the heck fire I can set at home and make more money. Someday's I think I'd be better off on Welfare.

[Skinsfan]

Fish, it goes further than taxing the rich... an independent report came out about 2 weeks ago showing that 85% of small businesses will be negatively impacted by Obama's tax proposal.

Furthermore, His proposed hike on CapGains tax is beyond reckless... First of all, this has been done two times in the past. BOTH time resulted in LOWER total capgains tax revenues for the government. So what's the point? It's purely class warfare. Let's not forget that this country is also heavily reliant on FDI and other foreign investments, and raising the capgains tax will provide a disincentive for those investments.

All in all, my problem with Obama's tax plans are that they are not business friendly. I know it's in vogue these days to hate all things business-oriented (those greedy bastards!), but I find it interesting how many people forget that businesses are the ones that set the prices at the grocery store and send out the vast majority of the paychecks in this country. Obama's plans will actually restrict the flow of capital from the investment class, which will have far-reaching implications.

[Fish2006]

Originally Posted by Skinsfan

Fish, it goes further than taxing the rich... an independent report came out about 2 weeks ago showing that 85% of small businesses will be negatively impacted by Obama's tax proposal.

Furthermore, His proposed hike on CapGains tax is beyond reckless... First of all, this has been done two times in the past. BOTH time resulted in LOWER total capgains tax revenues for the government. So what's the point? It's purely class warfare. Let's not forget that this country is also heavily reliant on FDI and other foreign investments, and raising the capgains tax will provide a disincentive for those investments.

All in all, my problem with Obama's tax plans are that they are not business friendly. I know it's in vogue these days to hate all things business-oriented (those greedy bastards!), but I find it interesting how many people forget that businesses are the ones that set the prices at the grocery store and send out the vast majority of the paychecks in this country. Obama's plans will actually restrict the flow of capital from the investment class, which will have far-reaching implications.

I rarely trust self-serving studies that talk about effects on small businesses.

I would love to see something like this after removing one person shops that run themselves as S-Corps. There are a lot of small businesses that are one person, and in reality, provide no jobs at all.

As far as whether his tax plans are business friendly, my answer is that the alternative is far worse. Under McCain, we starve our infrastructure, continue to depend on foreign oil, fail to get a working banking system (ask your small businesses about meeting payroll this month with no credit available), and let our country devolve into a 3rd world cesspool.

And for that matter - the biggest barrier to having small businesses compete with bigger ones - the cost of health insurance - is a disaster under McCain. Small businesses pay additional taxes every year, and have been for the last 20, when the health insurance provider raises premiums. Most businesses, unless they want to pass on these massive increases, absorb it. Improving and modernizing health care - something McCain never talks about, would do a huge favor for smaller businesses.

Besides, if you run a small business - what does higher W2 marginal rates have to do with anything - other than your own salary if you are paying yourself in excess of 250k. Small businesses pay corporate tax rates, and compete with larger businesses who can afford tax accountants who can use more novel strategies to move revenue to Bermuda. Obama wants these loopholes closed - which makes small businesses more competitive with bigger ones.

Given the amount of corporate welfare we are handing out, I really can't get that excited over our programs to help the poor. Yeah, I wish everyone was productive. But whats the alternative, not feed em at all? Put them into work camps? I really don't like blaming the poor right now - mostly because you can get all mad about people "freeloading", but it doesn't solve the problem. There are people with all sorts of problems, some of them self-inflicted, some of them because they never had parents who ever gave a shit. And a lot of these people end up drug addicted and worse, unable to care for themselves.

Personally, I would love for there to be a debate about how we get more from the human potential of our people in need. Especially if it moved from a debate over the shortcomings of said people - which is pretty obvious - to a debate over how to help these people overcome their shortcomings.

[Skinsfan]

1) You are wrong about small businesses playing corp. taxes. According to the IRS, 75% of those filing in the top income tax bracket are small businesses. Additionally, 75% of news jobs are created by small businesses, according to the IRS. A buddy of mine runs a drywall business and normally employs 6 workers (sometimes more depending on demand). He files as an individual. Why? To avoid double taxation. The only restriction on s-corps is that you must have less than 100 shareholders.

2) Please support your assumption that the alternative under Mccain is worse. He plans to lower corp. taxes from 35 to 25 percent. History shows the lowering taxes INCREASES tax revenue, creates jobs, and strengthens the economy. He plans an all of the above approach to energy independence, including off shore drilling so I fail to see how you can claim he wants to remain dependent on foreign oil.

3) I agree on health care concerns, but obama has already hinted on several of his stump speeches that his health care reform plans will most likely be placed on hold. This country is heading towards bankruptcy, and we can't afford his spending plans. If anyone actually believes that Obama is going to follow through with his nearly 1 trillion in new spending... well, let's just say... they deserver the leaders they get. As a matter of fact, anyone paying attention would notice that Obama has gone back against virtually every campaign promise he has made. Health care reform? gone. FISA removal? gone. Infrastructure fund? gone. Even his tax policies... he recently admitted that his tax policies should not be implemented during such a time of economic turmoil? WHAT? He is actually admitting that his tax policies will hurt the economy. So... put it on hold.

[Skinsfan]

Oh and as far as fixing our banking system goes.... here's a starting point... Throw Barney Frank in jail.

[BoKnows]

Originally Posted by Skinsfan

1) You are wrong about small businesses playing corp. taxes. According to the IRS, 75% of those filing in the top income tax bracket are small businesses. Additionally, 75% of news jobs are created by small businesses, according to the IRS. A buddy of mine runs a drywall business and normally employs 6 workers (sometimes more depending on demand). He files as an individual. Why? To avoid double taxation. The only restriction on s-corps is that you must have less than 100 shareholders.

2) Please support your assumption that the alternative under Mccain is worse. He plans to lower corp. taxes from 35 to 25 percent. History shows the lowering taxes INCREASES tax revenue, creates jobs, and strengthens the economy. He plans an all of the above approach to energy independence, including off shore drilling so I fail to see how you can claim he wants to remain dependent on foreign oil.

3) I agree on health care concerns, but obama has already hinted on several of his stump speeches that his health care reform plans will most likely be placed on hold. This country is heading towards bankruptcy, and we can't afford his spending plans. If anyone actually believes that Obama is going to follow through with his nearly 1 trillion in new spending... well, let's just say... they deserver the leaders they get. As a matter of fact, anyone paying attention would notice that Obama has gone back against virtually every campaign promise he has made. Health care reform? gone. FISA removal? gone. Infrastructure fund? gone. Even his tax policies... he recently admitted that his tax policies should not be implemented during such a time of economic turmoil? WHAT? He is actually admitting that his tax policies will hurt the economy. So... put it on hold.

Indisputable!

[BoKnows]

Originally Posted by Fish2006

Under McCain, we starve our infrastructure, continue to depend on foreign oil, fail to get a working banking system (ask your small businesses about meeting payroll this month with no credit available), and let our country devolve into a 3rd world cesspool.

And for that matter - the biggest barrier to having small businesses compete with bigger ones - the cost of health insurance - is a disaster under McCain. Small businesses pay additional taxes every year, and have been for the last 20, when the health insurance provider raises premiums. Most businesses, unless they want to pass on these massive increases, absorb it. Improving and modernizing health care - something McCain never talks about, would do a huge favor for smaller businesses.

Hmmmm....

One is for drilling one is against it.....drilling will lessen the need for foreign oil?Guess who is for which. The more we drill the more we save on the $600B/yr we spend oversease, which intune will lead to more $$ for alternative energy. How will a McCain plan starve our infrastructure?Asertive remark with little substance. Why do you think there is no credit available....see Barney Frank....and if you do not believe that is the cause/effect than this conversation has no merit or base to be expounded. It is the democrats that are taking the country into a 3rd world cesspool. As for healthcare, Obama's plan is horrendous and will be destructive to the overall well being of the american population....See Canada...!It is really not this tough to understand.